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Topic Title: AMD motherboards with PCI Express 3.0 support???
Topic Summary: AMD motherboards with PCI Express 3.0 support???
Created On: 09/18/2011 10:33 AM
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 09/18/2011 10:33 AM
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zeus33
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Where are the AMD motherboards with PCI Express 3.0 support???

August 3, 2010 - PCI Express 3.0: On Motherboards By This Time Next Year?
http://www.tomshardware.com/re...3.0-pci-sig,2695.html

I already know Intel has their pcie gen 3 mobos out but, Sandy Bridge doesn't support pcie 3. I'm only interested in AMD anyway.

I notice the new AMD/Radeon 7000 series GPU's support pcie 3.0, which is awesome!

AMD Radeon HD 7000 GPU Series to Feature PCI Express 3.0 Support
http://news.softpedia.com/news...-Support-212023.shtml

So, where are the PCIe 3 motherboards? When will they be available? I assume that the PCIe 3.0 capable mobos will be "10xx" after the "9xx" ???

However, my understanding is that the 1st run of Bulldozer will *NOT* support PCIe 3. The 2nd run might though in 2012. I have no interest in Bulldozer at all until it supports PCIe 3.0.

In order to receive true PCIe 3.0 full support everything must be PCIe 3.0, from Mobo, CPU, Chipsets and GPU. Otherwise, it's only as good as the weakest link in that chain.

I hope that the new AMD PCIe 3 mobos will be true pcie 3 or they'll be called out for it. Here's MSI reeeeeeming Gigabyte a new one:

MSI Calls Out Gigabyte for "Not True PCIe 3.0"
http://www.tomshardware.com/ne...-gen3-mobo,13377.html

Wowzers! That's quite a slap in the face.
 10/13/2011 12:26 PM
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zeus33
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Nothing huhh???

No word on when those AMD motherboards with PCIe 3.0 support are coming out?? I would really like to know.
 10/16/2011 09:03 AM
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MU_Engineer
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Originally posted by: zeus33

Nothing huhh???



No word on when those AMD motherboards with PCIe 3.0 support are coming out?? I would really like to know.


They will probably come out with the next chipset revision.

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 01/07/2012 12:26 PM
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zeus33
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So, still no PCIe 3 motherboards or CPU's from AMD? Seriously? Intel has had PCI Express Gen 3.0 motherboards out for 7 months (since July 2011) and now they even have several options.

It just seems strange to me that only a couple of the new higher end 7000 series GPU's have PCIe 3 support but, no CPU's or motherboards to go with it, which obviously means we can't get full potential out of it. I would think a smarter plan would've been to come out with motherboards with PCIe 3 support first. Any news on this from AMD yet? I've never even heard them talk about it. What's the hold up?
 01/07/2012 04:42 PM
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cvsi3
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Why not just try asking AMD. None of us here work for AMD, as its a user forum, so we know just as much as you do on stuff like that. Intel does have some boards that run PCIe 3, but its very few, not like its main stream, or if it is now, its just with the recient LGA 2011 boards.

Also, i may be wrong with this, but i thought i read it somewhere, that for example, if you were to run a PCIe 2 card in a PCIe 1 or 1.1 slot, there would be no or very little drop in performance as the cards dont use all of the capability of the slot anyways. If thats the case, it would probably hold true with the PCIe 3 cards running in PCIE 2 slots. May not even know the difference.

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 01/07/2012 06:32 PM
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zeus33
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Oh okay, I thought somebody here would at least know something about it. Fair enough. AMD never responds. I thought somebody here could contact AMD and be more likely to get a response.

You may be right about the PCI card due to the fact that GPU's currently cannot saturate the bandwidth yet but, that's for gamers. There are other much better reasons to have PCIe 3. I don't need it for games. I need it for work projects I do.
 01/07/2012 08:53 PM
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MU_Engineer
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Originally posted by: zeus33

So, still no PCIe 3 motherboards or CPU's from AMD? Seriously? Intel has had PCI Express Gen 3.0 motherboards out for 7 months (since July 2011) and now they even have several options.



It just seems strange to me that only a couple of the new higher end 7000 series GPU's have PCIe 3 support but, no CPU's or motherboards to go with it, which obviously means we can't get full potential out of it. I would think a smarter plan would've been to come out with motherboards with PCIe 3 support first. Any news on this from AMD yet? I've never even heard them talk about it. What's the hold up?


A couple likely reasons:

1. PCIe 3.0 is brand-spanking-new technology and the bugs aren't all worked out yet. Example: the Sandy Bridge-E PCIe 3.0 debacle. AMD is loath to implement brand-new, still likely buggy interface technology with no real immediate gains on their products. Thats' why they stuck with SDRAM when Intel went to the ill-fated RDRAM, DDR when Intel went to early, slow, expensive DDR2, and DDR2 when Intel debuted early, slow, expensive DDR3.

2. There is no real benefit to PCIe 3.0 at the current time. GPUs are the biggest BW hogs in general usage and none saturates the PCIe 2.0 x16 bus, so no immediate pressure to move to PCIe 3.0. Note that AMD *did* move to 6 Gbps SATA quickly- there was a need for that due to SSDs saturating 3 Gbps SATA.

So, why introduce a possibly buggy, expensive, not currently useful feature into a product? AMD seems to have learned Intel's lessons with the ill-fated i820 chipset, the P67 Cougar Point chipset, and now Sandy Bridge-E.

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 01/08/2012 06:37 PM
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zeus33
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Well, thanks for that, MU_Engineer. I can honestly say that that really is the very best explanation I've heard. Although, it's the only one I've heard as well.

#1. PCIe 3 has been out since November 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...press#PCI_Express_3.0

#2. I understand there's no real benefit with GPU's but, including PCIe 3 support on motherboards makes far, far more sense than putting PCIe 3 support on GPU's with no motherboards to make use of it at all.

I suppose my reason for wanting PCIe 3 are quite logical; I am ready for a new build. My business PC is on its last leg and I simply want a next generation motherboard with full PCIe 3 support before I buy anything - even if I don't make full use of it right away. I need my business PC to be on par with the new standards not the old, soon to be obsolete standards, because I will probably keep it until it dies again.

Hasn't enough time has passed by now that AMD can finally come out with the new, next generation PCIe 3.0 standard in its motherboards? Intel's PCIe gen 3 has been out for 7 months now since July, however, you say they've been buggy. I honestly wouldn't know anything about that. Any links or references for that? I'd love to see them. Still though, all that waiting and all those delays didn't seem to help a thing with the Bulldozer CPU (I'm not trying to be an arse here, just pointing out the obvious). I understand there appears to be an issue with Windows 7 holding back potential too so, hopefully Microsoft will fix that in an upcoming service pack. Maybe the 2nd generation Bulldozer will perform to plan. Hopefully it will support PCIe 3.

I'm ready for Hyper Transport 4 too.

Edited: 01/08/2012 at 06:51 PM by zeus33
 01/13/2012 05:48 PM
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rmjohnson144
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I can't remember where I read it, but the PCIe 2.1 was suppose to have all features of PCIe 3 except the extra bandwidth. Not sure which features PCIe3 has over PCIe 2.0. But since PCIe 2.0 bandwidth isn't even saturated yet, (at least by video cards), maybe AMD decided to wait on full implementation. although Bulldozer would seem an appropriate time to do so.

Maybe they will wait until Bulldozer second gen after they have worked out all the kinks Bulldozer's new architecture has in it. I assume less debugging if only one new architecture at a time is introduced.

Anyone know of any video card benchies comparing pci2 to pci3 since AMD has released the 7000 series cards finally.

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 01/16/2012 06:47 PM
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zeus33
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The Wiki link above explains PCI. Gen 3 has doubled the bandwidth but, its use is not just for gamers. It's not always about gamers - some of us actually have work to do. Still, PCI needed to come out with it in order for GPU makers to take advantage of it.

GPU's and gamers would, I assume, get some serious use out of PCIe 3 if GPU's had quad cores. However, it's important to keep in mind that one will never get true PCIe 3 support unless everything in the chain is PCIe 3 (i.e. mobo, chipsets, CPU, GPU etc). Otherwise, it's only as good as the weakest link in that chain. Which is why it's really wierd that AMD chose to include PCIe 3 support for their 79xx GPU's while there are no motherboards or CPU's that include PCIe 3 support. It's useless until AMD has mobos, chipsets and CPU's with PCIe 3 support to go with those 79xx PCIe 3 GPU's.

Benchmarking the Benefits of PCI-E 3.0
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com...970-3gb-review-21.html
 01/17/2012 12:41 AM
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Xajel
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AMD Needs another chipset to go PCIe 3.0 and the 900 series is already new ( for AMD )...

+ AMD needs to have faster HT connection between the CPU and chipset or just have all PCIe 3.0 lanes directly outs from the CPU not the chipset
 01/17/2012 08:34 PM
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zeus33
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Xajel, by HT do you mean HyperTransport? If so, yes, it's passed time for HT 4. HT 3 has been out since 08 - http://www.hypertransport.org/...lt.cfm?page=Technology
 01/17/2012 08:36 PM
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zeus33
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So, I sent an e-mail to AMD asking when motherboards might be coming out with PCIe 3 support and their response seemed like AMD was saying that was up to the mobo manufacturers.

"AMD only sources the processors and chipsets for motherboard manufacturers and therefore, build no motherboards. For motherboards, we anticipate AMD Partners such as ASUS, ASRock, Biostar, Foxconn, Gigabyte, MSI to provide motherboards to support PCI Express x16 3.0 to support the AMD Radeon HD 7000 Series. For more information, please contact the motherboard manufacturer directly for more information on release dates for PCI Express x16 3.0 with embedded AMD Chipsets."

I had to respond:

"I knew AMD didn't actually manufacture their own motherboards, I was simply asking when I might be able to expect motherboards for AMD products that will have support for PCIe 3 to be made available? There are motherboards out with PCIe gen 3 support for Intel since July, 2011. I thought motherboards with PCIe 3.0 support for AMD products would've been available by now. Any thoughts on an approx. date for availability?"

AMD's 2nd response:

"Currently, we have no updates on availability for PCI Express 3.0 support for motherboards based on the AMD Chipset for manufacturers such as ASUS, Gigabyte, MSI. We anticipate these manufacturers to release comparable motherboards in the near future to support the Radeon HD 7000 Series, which is able to accommodate PCI Express 3.0.

Since the release schedule is contingent on the motherboard manufacturers, we recommend that you contact the motherboard manufacturers directly for estimated time to market. Thank you."

So, I e-mailed MSI and MSI responded:

"Thanks for your email. MSI follows AMD design specs, and we do not have this type of information as PCI-E lanes are allocated via the CPU and/or chipset."

Anybody else want to contact AMD and mobo makers to ask when they'll be coming out with motherboards for AMD with PCIe 3.0 support?
 01/18/2012 03:20 AM
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Xajel
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@zeus33,

Yes indeed, HT3 is slow to have full support for PCIe 3.0, and while AMD managed to have PCIe lanes directly on the CPU ( discrete GPU's connects directly to the CPU, no chipset between them ) this is still limited by Fusion APU's ( Llano ) while bulldozer which supposed to be the higher-end still use HT to connect to a chipset where a HT-PCIe tunnel is there !!

HT4 is not yet available AFAIK, the fastest one available is HT3.1 which is 51.2GB/s for a 32bit wide links.. just compare it to 2 - 3 x 16x PCIe 3.0 speed required for a high-end system...

I think if AMD want's PCIe support they should
1- Use different socket
2- Have PCIe 3.0 built right in the CPU for main graphics cards ( at least 2 to 3 full x16 PCIe 3.0, so a total of 32 - 48 lanes of PCIe 3.0 )
3- Have the current HT link to connect to the chipset, or replace it completely with other PCIe lanes...

the Current socket ( AM3/AM3+ ) doesn't support this.. so they weill need another socket, AFAIK from some leaked info, AM3/AM3+ are not electrically compatible, I don't know why but it might be a sign of major change or end of life of AM3 socket...

I think the best solution will go for new CPU socket, it might be the next FM socket as it is already have directly linked PCIe lanes ( even thought not enough )
 01/18/2012 08:09 AM
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candle_86
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Originally posted by: zeus33

So, still no PCIe 3 motherboards or CPU's from AMD? Seriously? Intel has had PCI Express Gen 3.0 motherboards out for 7 months (since July 2011) and now they even have several options.



It just seems strange to me that only a couple of the new higher end 7000 series GPU's have PCIe 3 support but, no CPU's or motherboards to go with it, which obviously means we can't get full potential out of it. I would think a smarter plan would've been to come out with motherboards with PCIe 3 support first. Any news on this from AMD yet? I've never even heard them talk about it. What's the hold up?


the fact that the 7970 only shows 1-2% drop when runnning in an 8x slot from a 16x PCIe 2.0 means 3.0 will offer it nothing it doesn't need the bandwith

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 01/18/2012 01:30 PM
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zeus33
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Xajel, now that was truly helpful information. Would you make a video about PCIe 3 on youtube explaining all of that? It appears that AMD and Intel both need to see it.
 01/18/2012 01:51 PM
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Canis-X
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If you wait for the "new stuff" to come out you will turn old a gray and be a bitter old man. New stuff comes out roughly every 6 months. The gains for PCI 3.0 are only as good as the software that supports it, which at this time is none. Get what you need now and by the time you upgrade again we will have enthusiast systems that actually are smart phones that are implanted behind you ear. I just don't know why you are making such a fuss over it. They (AMD) didn't (and still haven't.....oh.....and won't) tell us what the delay was all about concerning BullDozer. <--That being said your pressuring is not going to make anything happen any quicker nor get an answer to your demand. In short, it will get here when it gets here and not a minute sooner.......and you still will not be provided with a reason why it was delayed (in your eyes), to them it was released when it was released, so it was released on time......which, btw, is what they repeated over and over again with BullDozer.

If you want PCI 3.0 now then get an Intel, 2011 socket, rig with all the appropriate components and there you go. Judging from the link that you provided though, you are going to want to shoot yourself for spending all the extra money on a technology that doesn't really give you any better performance.

....just my 2 cents, cheers!!

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/thread

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 01/18/2012 04:39 PM
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zeus33
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Fair enough, there's a lot of truth there, Canis-X. However, I do have a good reason for wanting PCIe 3.0 - for WORK at my business. Nearly everything I do in my business would benefit from PCIe 3.

"If you wait for the "new stuff" to come out you will turn old a gray and be a bitter old man. New stuff comes out roughly every 6 months."

That's true & I've heard that many times in the past but, that's not exactly what I'm doing here since PCIe 3 did become available in Nov 2010 and Intel mobos with PCIe 3 have been out since July 2011. PCIe 2 came out in like 2004 so, it has been around 8 years since we've had an update. Plus, the article shared in the original post: "August, 2010 - PCI Express 3.0: On Motherboards By This Time Next Year?"

That came true for Intel but, still nothing from AMD. Intel is just sooo much more expensive than AMD & it's not always worth it. So, I am making a bit of a fuss because I don't want to have to buy another new system or replace everything inside after just a few months to a year or so when they do finally come out with PCIe 3 products. It's just so close I hate to give in now. I tend to keep my computers until they die (it's not far off now) so, I don't want to buy an already soon to be outdated system that is not all that far off from being obsolete. So, I'm fine with a mobo that I can update with PCIe 3 products as they come out.

"The gains for PCI 3.0 are only as good as the software that supports it, which at this time is none."

Good point, however, I'd like to have the system to take advantage of it when it does. I don't want to be stuck with a system that will never take advantage of it.

If my computer dies before hand then, so be it, I guess.
 01/19/2012 01:37 AM
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Xajel
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AFAIK, currently the only benefit of PCIe 3.0 is on GPGPU on GPU's thats support it...

In games it hardly matters as games tends to do all the job in the card it self ( between GPU and its memory ), with every new generation and more requirement of games ( resolution and quality ) the bandwidth required will be more, but the current speed increase of PCIe is accepted and almost in line with what games require.

but in GPGPU it matter much more, in games huge amount of data that being processed is within the card and then goes out to the display, while in GPGPU the raw data dent to the card, processed and then goes back... this requires more bandwidth. the new gen HD 7900 series is a little different

in past GPGPU solutions ( and games ), if you have some data on the system ram and require it in the GPU, you have to copy it from system RAM to the GPU Memory and use it, and vise versa...

in HD 7900 the situation is different, you don't need to copy the data, you can just have direct access to it, the GPU is able to directly access the system RAM by just re addressing the data, and also vise versa.. this is already have been done with Fusion APU's the built in GPU and CPU both has access to the RAM ( they share the RAM ), the problem with shared RAM is low bandwidth to the GPU compared to regular discrete card... and the problem getting worse when you need to copy data from GPU memory pool to CPU memory pool within the same memory... this just waste bandwidth and memory space for duplicated data...
AMD fixed this with letting both CPU & GPU access the whole memory any place any time with just readdressing the data, so for example when the GPU needs that 500MB of data for that game which is located in the CPU memory pool, in normal cases you will have to copy it to the GPU memory pool and then tell the GPU here's your data.. but with Fusion they fixed this with just changing the address, so if your GPU requires that data, you don't copy it, you just give the GPU the new address and tell here's your data.. so just guess how it takes to copy 500MB ( bandwidth + latency ) compared to just giving the new address of the already exist data...

Now AMD wants to dot he same with HD7900 ( GCN generation of GPU's ), the problem now is if you want the GPU to handle some data that is located in the System memory you will need a lot of bandwidth ( you know, GPU's is memory bandwidth hungry )... that's why they support PCIe 3.0... and also vise-versa...

and here's the new problem... with AMD, the current position of high-end CPU, is to have CPU-HyperTransport-chipset-PCIe link-VGA card, and the problem is with Hyper Transport !!

even thought HT 3.1 supports up to 51.2GB/s but this is for 32bit links, AMD HT 3.1 uses only 16bit links, so just 25.6GB/s and this 12.6GB/s per direction.
in PCIe 3.0 the speed of single PCIe x16 is even faster than the whole bandwidth offered by HT 3.1, PCIe x16 needs 16GB/s for each direction and a total of 32GB/s !!

So you might have a guess of why AMD didn't support PCIe 3.0 in their latest chipset, as just one single PCIe x16 3.0 slot will require more bandwidth than what HT link will offer, even thought no GPU will actually use it ( most GPU's don't even use the full PCIe x16 2.0 bandwidth ) but AMD can't risk it...

So how Intel did it ?
Intel have PCIe lanes directly in the CPU so there's no link between the CPU and PCIe that limits the bandwidth. only in limited situation they have it but not for discreet...
in Intel high-end socket ( LGA 2011) there's 40 PCIe lanes, that has many configurations possibilities, it can be 2x16, or 1x16 + 2x8, or it can be 4x8.. so this can cover, dual GPU, triple and Quad !!
in Intel mainstream socket ( LGA 1155 ) there's 16 PCIe lanes, it can be in one or two configurations depending on the chipset used, 1x16 or 2x8... so you can have single or dual vga cards...

AMD already had x16 lanes on Fusion with it's new FM1 socket, but as Bulldozer still uses the AM3 socket which does not support any PCIe lanes as it was designed to have HT link to external chipset that works as HT-PCIe tunnel... they will need to
1- have a new modified socket same as AM3 but with different electrical pins that replaces HT links pins with PCIe lanes.. it can be hard and it will make the new socket in-compatible in any way with current AM3 Socket, this will be fast but bad idea, as it will just give another in-compatible socket.. the only benefit here is compatible 3rd party cooler with all AM3 compatible one...
2- Replace AM3 Socket with completely new Socket used as a bumped up version of FM1 ( like FM1 plus or FM2 plus, it's known that Next gen. Fusion ( Trinity ) will use FM2 Socket )... of-course this is good as AMD can work to have it designed with future compatibility in mind, but in most cases this will not be compatible with current AM3 coolers...

maybe AMD is working on the first idea ( replacing HT link pins with PCIe lanes pins ) if that is possible I don't know, just a fast move while they finalize the completely new socket design which normally takes time...
 01/19/2012 09:41 AM
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Canis-X
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Ok, so can you define exactly what technology in PCI 3.0 is so vital to your work that warrant's the "need to have" label? Based off of the performance benchmarks, I don't. Basically the same minuscule difference as there was between DDR2 and DDR3 RAM when DDR3 first came out. It just did not justify the cost difference. Even if/when PCI 3.0 does come out as a technology, you are still going to have to wait for the software to catch up which can be several years. Case in point, games still do not use more than 2-3 cores even though 4+ core CPU's have been out for several years now. The first game to use more than 2/3 cores was released late last year, BF3, which can and does use all 6 of my cores. Another example would be multiple GPU configurations ( CrossFire X / SLi), you didn't see too many games taking advantage of this technology until the ATi 5xxx series even though ATi started this several versions prior.

I think that you will be safe using AMD's current offering now and by the time that computer "dies" your next hardware replacement cycle should and will be better suited to the new PCI version that is out as most of the software should have caught up to the tech and use it properly. I still stand by my statement though that if you want PCI 3.0 that badly then you should go Intel, besides if performance is what you are needing in your work computer you will see much better gains with Intel than AMD and the amount of power required will be significantly less.

Xajel: Thank you for the very informative post!

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